Kimco corporate REIT is a New York Blue Chip stock with a profit strategy. That profit strategy favors investors while eliminating weak portfolio small businesses. The attitude toward these small businesses and the community is apparently agnostic. But, how is a winning investment strategy empty store fronts and no rent?
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| Round Table Linda Mar Shopping Center closed* |
"The sign at the empty storefront at 1285 Linda Mar Shopping Center, Pacifica, reads — For Lease: Kimco Realty. Formerly the home of Round Table Pizza, this is just one of several addresses in the same shopping center with the all-too-familiar announcement. Also stamped for lease by Kimco are spaces 1361, 1359, 1367 and 1430. "
Kimco is a New York Stock Exchange Real Estate Trust, "that owns and operates North Amerca's largest portfolio of neighborhood and community shopping centers". Locally Kimco REIT owns Linda Mar Shopping Center, Fairmont Shopping Center, Westlake Shopping Center, and 280 Metro Center.
"Round Table Pizza has been a staple in Pacifica for over 25 years, hosting birthday parties, baseball parties, soccer parties, football events and the list goes on. The store closed quietly several weeks back. One of the shopkeepers in the center said it was there on a Monday night, and emptied out the next day when he arrived at work." Read article. Article includes Kimco REIT contact information. * Note: Photo by Jean Bartlett
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| Patty Hallmark also closed recently |
Related - Kimco Realty, KIMCO pioneered the modern Real Estate Investment Trust era. "A Real Estate Investment Trust (REIT) is a company that owns, and in
most cases, operates income-producing real estate such as apartments,
shopping centers, offices, hotels and warehouses. Some REITs also engage
in financing real estate. The shares of many REITs are freely traded,
usually on a major stock exchange.
The stock. From Seeking Alpha (investment advisory): the Kimco Realty REIT stock (KIM) is the Blue Chip "king of the jungle". And the investment philosophy is profit: "Buying companies trading below intrinsic value leaves a cushion for
error, thus giving you a margin of safety in case your analysis of the
stock's value is too high."
What is a REIT? "To qualify as a REIT, a company must distribute at least 90 percent of
its taxable income to its shareholders annually. A company that
qualifies as a REIT is permitted to deduct dividends paid to its
shareholders from its corporate taxable income. As a result, most REITs
remit at least 100 percent of their taxable income to their shareholders
and therefore owe no corporate tax. Taxes are paid by shareholders on
the dividends received and any capital gains. Most states honor this
federal treatment and also do not require REITs to pay state income tax.
Like other businesses, but unlike partnerships, a REIT cannot pass any
tax losses through to its investors." Posted by Kathy Meeh
135 comments:
You know, I'm all for promoting small business but these landlords jack up the rent and half their rentals sit empty for years.
They need an incentive to lower their rents.
How about Imposing a monthly levy for each storefront that remains empty more than 6 months in larger retail centers. That will stimulate these shopping center owners to lower their rents. Otherwise the money collected can be used to help businesses relocate in Pacifica.
Is that legal?
No. It's not legal.
The Owner/Manager was an idiot and ran the business into the ground.
He fired his former manager and let the 18 and 20 year olds run the place. Giving away pizza and beer, he gets what he deserves. Never paid rent. Stop blaming the landlords.
Pay the rent or get the fk out. That is the policy. The going rent is the going rent. That is just all about supply and demand.
You idiots want to bring in commerical rent control.
You don't understand the market dynamics.
If the city council did rent control and rolled back rents to what year? 2000? 1990? How about 1970's rent.
The owner didnt know how to staff cause times I went in there and 10 kids are behind the counter not knowing what to do. One day they didnt even have someone over 21 to pour beer.
It just the sad pathetic state Pacifica is in.
Brain dead policies. Bankrupt town.
Oh, I must have struck a nerve.
Sure it's legal to levy a fee on empty storefronts. That is NOT rent control. It costs the city more in extra police patrol, lost fees, jobs and sales tax.
Yes all these mega corporations think about is supply and demand. Well with so many empty storefronts in Linda Mar, Eureka Square and Fairmont it looks like their equation is way off.
"Sure it's legal to levy a fee on empty storefronts." Are you an attorney? Do you have an example of where this has been done? I can't believe it's legal to charge me a fee if my storefront stands empty through no fault of my own.
The landlords of these places can afford an empty storefront because
often it's a tax write-off. They
plan to raise the rents when the leases end. It's part of being a good investment. And who wants a shopping center in their town that isn't a good investment worth maintaining? A city probably could pass an ordnance to encourage occupancy but dictating the amount of rent is out so you're going to have the same problem as leases end and rents go up. That old-style center is ripe for a tear-down and rebuild and that would be wonderful for Pacifica. Westlake Center is so much better than before. Parking is hell but that's the kind of problem a commercial landlord loves. And so does the City of Daly City.
I too am unhappy about Round Table leaving Pacifica. I hope we can get a Round Table back here someday. The Linda Mar store had local character. I hope some of that memorabilia will be donated to historical society. At the climate change meeting, I noted that Linda Mar residents will now need to commute over the hill to Westborough or Daly City. I did not mention, though, that 20 jobs or so vanished, and those people will be commuting as well.
We need an Economic Development professional on staff here in Pacifica. Such a person could pro-actively identify businesses at risk of closure or having difficulties by doing an annual or bi-annual business health survey. This is called "Business Retention".
I've talked with merchants at both Fairmont and Linda Mar. Several more may close in the next few months due to rents and business levels. There are several things Round Table could have done, but did not. They could have downsized like the Round Table store on Chestnut Avenue in South San Francisco, which now has a Wingstop in 1/3 of the former space. They could have relocated elsewhere in Pacifica too. The Straw Hat building in Manor comes to mind, its for lease, was'nt there a Round Table there long ago? Also, they could have had a "take-out" operation at the former Aculpulco next to Lighthouse Hotel. The Round Table issues might have revolved around management, as Anonymous 7:14PM 8/10 suggests. In that case, I would have referred them to the SBA Development Center in San Francisco, or the Service Corps of Retired Executives, to try to get them back on track.
On July 17, I invited two reps from KIMCO to come down and attend our Economic Development Committee meeting last Tuesday. We received no reply. We would love to have dialogue with them about long-time stores closing at both their properties in town, as well as attracting more customers to their center and working with us. We'll keep trying to establish communication. KIMCO's "crown jewel" in this area is Westlake, they are doing lots of improvement projects there, probably demanding most of their attention, we need to get on their agenda anyway we can.
About Eureka Square, its my impression they have changed. The community has spoken and they have heard. I think the departure of the FNBNC branch was the turning point. No tenants have been forced out by rents in the last two years. The Hydroponics store closed due to non-rent issues. We can and should stop beating up the management of Eureka Square now. They have donated the Art Gallery space at no rent until they can find a tenant for that spot. They owners and management are open to new ideas about the future of the center. I support new investment in that center and want to encourage the owners to look into that.
Victor, this is Pacifica and we love our beat-downs. Keeps the focus off the real issues. I like what you have to say and your experience in economic development.
We're ready for change and we need people who actually have the skills
not just the rhetoric.
If I'm reading it correctly, it sounds like this article is actually complaining about a "profit strategy"!?!?!
Once the central rent committee determines what rents the landlords are allowed to charge, will they then determine the prices of the pizza?
Victor
I like what you are saying.
Pacifica doesnt have the money to hire anyone, so I assume someone may have to come in part time or maybe get some volunteers to staff this economic development czar.
I think the failed policies of the past councils came back to haunt them.
Pacifica is another lawesuit or big el nino winter away from being Bankrupt.
Pacifica doesn't have the money to hire anyone.." Anonymous 12:53 AM
The city cannot afford not to hire a top notch, focused professional to bring-in functional economic development to this city.
Think of this way. The city can afford consultants on almost every issue, including whether to tax its citizens. Hence, the city can afford to hire a highly qualified professional to fix the city structural problem which has existed beyond NIMBY 10 year+ city council.
Setting up a structure to develop a revenue stream, jobs and a balanced city economy is a very good investment. Its top of the to do list.
I spoke to the KIMCO management when they had an outside company send all the tenants letters telling them to stop their garbage service because this other firm was taking over delegating how the garbage was picked up. Many of the tenants immediately called our office feeling that whatever the garbage cost was would be divided equally amongst the tenants instead of the individual business'paying for their own service. After I finally had to get City Hall involved in this, the main gentleman from KIMCO, who was located outside of this area, called me to explain their strategy. They did not understand that each business had their own garbage service and the needs of the business (garbage, recycling, compost) was geared to the frequency of pickup the business requested of us (ie; Starbucks has every day recycling service but twice a week garbage service).At that time, Patty's Hallmark had just closed and when I questioned this, with my Pacifica Chamber of Commerce hat on, I was told she had signed an "old lease" and the new lease was considerably more for the space. I told him we were not Carmel by the Sea and needed the small independent stores, especially one that had been here as long as the Hallmark store, for convenience of the customers in town. He had no qualms (sp?) about shutting it down. The needs of the town do not figure into their plans what so ever. I don't know all the details about Round Table but did hear at the last minute the business owner got a call from someone wanting to buy the equipment in the store so they thought that perhaps KIMCO got another pizza franchise to come in. That was a couple of weeks ago and I haven't heard anything more about that. I also know KIMCO forced PARTY TIME out of Westlake. They had been there at least 25 years and they (the renter) told me directly that KIMCO tried to triple the rent. There are a few vacant storefronts in Westlake right now.
As for Eureka Square, they forced most of the tenants out with exorbinate rate increase requests (ie; First National Bank)and then tried to get a change in zoning to build homes and/or condos/townhouses. When they were told this was not going to happen, I don't know what their next step is going to be. The Chamber is also trying to get a meeting with KIMCO and the BIAGINI brothers to discuss their plans. The Chamber is working hard to have new business come to town and build on what we have but when the base business erodes (Round Table Pizza) it is hard to build on.
Here you go Anon 1108:
Berkeley City Council is considering a plan to levy fees against property owners whose ground-level properties remain vacant for six months or more.
http://www.dailycal.org/2011/09/23/city-council-considers-levying-fee-on-vacant-storefronts/
This reads like everyone is working against business, private or otherwise. At least we know all parties are on the same side. Does anyone know how to bow hunt? Fish? I see a future where there are no stores or restaurants. Primitive way of living. Yay!
This entire thread is a joke. You don't get to decide what a landlord will charge in rent any more than people clicking their heels together and chanting "outet mall in the quarry" will somehow make that happen.
They own the property and can charge whatever rent they see fit. If it's exorbitant, they'll lose tenants and go out of business. People who talk about the benefits of empty properties as "tax write-offs" are not very good at simple arithmetic.
Chris Porter,
Thank you for your informative post. How sad to see our local businesses disappear. I really don't know what else to say.
anon607 Simple arithmetic may be all you can handle. Kimco knows every tax strategy in the book and uses them to protect profits while practicing an uber-aggressive lease strategy. They expect casualties while they build value for their investors. Community goodwill and tenant comfort are secondary to profit. As Chris Porter mentioned earlier about her dealings with Kimco, they couldn't care less about our choice of shops or customer loyalty. Profit is all they care about and their strategy takes into account a number of small empty store fronts. Rents aren't coming down. And, sometimes after many years in business like Patty's and RoundTable, one more hassle is just one too many for a small business.
Anon 1233 It's a hoot isn't it. All these pro-business folks complaining about a very successful business strategy used by mall owners all over the country. You guys sure you really want business growth in Pacifica? Or do you just want your comfort food and familiar shops and no change? Careful, you're going to be mistaken for NIMBYs or faux pros.
Chris P, great comment and thank you for the follow through with the absentee landlords.
Please explain the magic tax strategy whereby a landlord makes more profit with no rent.
The people commenting here on how a REIT should run its business are about as qualified to do so as the artists and environmentalists who keep offering engineering options for the highway widening project.
Of course Kimco doesn't give a crap about anything but their bottom line.
That's why giving them a little incentive to keep stores open will work so well.
Yes I'm pro business. And we need to look out for our local small businesses.
There are plenty of ways to incentivize keeping their malls full. Either carrot or stick will work. If you don't like the levy approach , we could offer tax incentives for every rented space.
It doesn't make sense that Kimco profits by having empty stores.
Unless there's some kind of blatant business incompetence that affects the city, e.g., Eureka Square management, the city ought to stay out of it. The situation at Linda Mar mall looks like it's just a case of a business doing badly, not being able to cover costs, and shutting down.
The city meddling in the affairs of local businesses is one of the things that keeps businesses from coming here in the first place.
It is very clear to me from reading this thread that the people posting do not understand BUSINESS. Sad.
You run a business into the ground it is not your landlords job of rescuing you. Get it!
Finally, a voice of reason. I'm a liberal democrat, but more government and more regulation is not always the answer -- particularly by people who don't know anything about the business (like our council or the people posting on this blog).
You don't get a tax write off for an emtpy store front. You get a tax write off for marketing, clean up and general repairs.
The landlords like this got fat and happy for so long getting outrageous rents in these centers across the country.
The owner of Tanforan Mall went into Bankruptcy a while back before the big national retailers started to close stores and recast rents.
If you own 100 malls a percentage are going to be dogs with fleas. For every mall like Linda Mar they may have 90 or 100 that are full bringing in good rents.
Amazon.com and the internet shopping changed retail shopping for ever.
Most of the malls you see empty or mostly empty are the dogs with fleas.
Don't jump to conclusions/over-simplify. I don't think anyone is saying the empty storefront generates actual income. More like it doesn't really hurt the corporate balance sheet in the way it would a small landlord. And it's not the loss of rental income that is the tax write-off but there are tremendous tax write-offs involved for KIMCO. All the write-offs continue for vacant units for maintenance, property taxes, repairs, insurance, adv, mtge interest, depreciation, repairs, improvements(spread over time), etc. A REIT (real estate investment trust)like KIMCO (NYSE:Kim) uses every deduction to protect income and value. The loss of rents from a few smaller units are easily offset by rising rents, rock bottom interest rates and the steady longterm income from the big chain anchor tenants like Rite-Aid, Safeway, Ross, Starbucks, Denny's, McDonalds, BofA. Anchor leases are staggered. KIMCO is doing just fine.
REITs are fascinating investment vehicles. As long as a REIT distributes 90% of its income to shareholders it pays no corporate taxes on the distributed amount, no fed and often no state. Of course the distribution is treated as ordinary income for those shareholders and they are taxed accordingly. Makes it a somewhat volatile investment that requires smart tax advice. There are all kinds of REITs and one type with real growth potential is the healthcare type which includes senior housing. Aging baby-boomers and all that. Bring it on!
All these suggestions for local intervention are way off target. Right now their are no tax incentives for occupancy and the City of Pacifica has zero clout. Zero clout. Legislative action to create tax credits for occupancy would change the entire picture although unintended consequences like faster turn could be a problem. It's a business run by an absentee landlord and money talks!
Tear it down and bring in more big chain stores that drive higher foot traffic, create jobs, build tax revenues . Not a warm, fuzzy solution but that's where the money is these days. Oh my gawd, not chain stores! An idea sure to wake up that dormant NIMBY gene in us all.
Anonymous 11:25 AM, etc., you're no liberal Democrat. I think you're a fraud who flunked the basic business ethics class, now shelling for this Dawinian REIT stock.
Recourse from the city? FMV do anything and everything possible to abate this abstract REIT management hazard. Hutch has a "carrot/stick" suggestion, that's one.
BTW without supervision, its unlikely a vested 25 year business owner would turnover his business to his young adult son.
Kimco owns and operates the largest portfolio of neighborhood shopping centers in the US. Huge player in other countries, too. They seem to have a very consistent, successful business strategy for the "new" retail. We should be happy they are here. Live long and prosper.
Maybe the chamber could get Kimco to donate a space for another art gallery? Or a visitor center? Tax write-off opportunity.
".. successful business strategy" Anonymous 1:36 PM
Ur, is the more accurate term "predatory business strategy"? Not good for this weak economic community.
Seeking Alpha Investment Advisory does indicate Kimco REIT is "king of the jungle" with "946 properties in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, Puerto Rico and Latin America." So, our long term suffering and their 20% annual profit in a recession is shared sacrifice for us and the others.
Kathy, Kimco doesn't give a plover's ass about our suffering local economy. Why should they? They report to investors who expect a return on their investment. If our past and present expectations as a community had been a little higher and our leaders more ethical, we might not be facing economic extinction. Given the tasks government takes on, it cannot operate as a business but it shouldn't operate as a suicide bomber either. Nothing between us and being another failed city except city hall. Hardly encouraging.
Kathy considers a business attempting to make a profit a "predatory business strategy". Her remedy is to fine and tax them until they leave Pacifica for one of the many places that aren't so hostile towards business.
Instead of repeatedly whining about the "council three", you should evaluate how strikingly similar your own anti-business policies are.
Kathy, your comment about Anon 11:25 not being a liberal democrat? What on earth are you talking about? One can be a liberal and call for sound government.
As for Kimco and the rents. Most commercial shopping centers pass some of the the operating costs through to the individual tenants. This is through a net lease agreement. Having an empty storefront means that the REIT now has to pay for all the upkeep for that empty storefront, and under the tax laws for a REIT, empty storefronts or losses, are not tax deductible.
The expenses Kimco pays out for an empty storefront are most certainly tax-deductible in a REIT. Loss of rent is not. Bottom line? Kimco is clearly in no rush to address the problem of empty units because the easiest fix would be to lower rents and that they're not doing. Anywhere.
Amazing how some people are so enraged that we suggest doing something about outrageous rents being charged to our local businesses.
Are you guys KIMCO executives?
First they say it's illegal, then it wont work.
This is not rent control I'm suggesting. You want to leave a bunch of units empty, then you pay a levy to compensate for added police patrols, increased crime, lost sales tax, jobs, etc.
We wouldn't be telling you to lower your rent, but if you decide that's better than paying a levy than great. If not that's fine too. We'll use the levy money to help small businesses relocate.
What's next? You levy a fine on Sharp Park because they aren't booking enough rounds? On Nick's because you don't think they're selling enough crab sandwiches?
This entire discussion is beyond ridiculous.
"..."Kimco doesn't give a plover's ass about our suffering local economy." Anonymous 3:10 PM.
Apparently you're right about that. A friend told me that Maxine Gonsalves was complaining about Shopping Center management more than 10 years ago when she was on city council. So 10+ years later, why not work toward City solutions (whatever that is). A conversation "carrot" happens fine; an ordinance "stick" happens fine. The winners are 1) the REIT, more revenue, more tax avoidance, 2) the city, more sales taxes, 3) the people of Pacifica more services, some jobs. Empty store fronts are another reason for the city to have an Economic Development professional.
Anonymous dottoheads 5:35 PM and 5:38 PM, the REIT stock fund management has demonstrated its "predatory business strategy" track record. There is more to business than collecting the money and doing maintenance. Not keeping the property rented, and the community happy is stupid. Its not good business practice, and its lopsided American capitalism at its worst.
The 11:25 AM and 11:23 AM comments were insulting to people posting comment on this thread. Most of us do understand business issues. Also, no liberal Democrat views business from an anti-government, anti-regulation perspective without more explanation than none.
And, Anonymous 5:35 PM, your comment directed at me is upside down and backward. Try reality.
Thanks to those who have offered additional REIT clarification.
That's ridiculous Anon 759, This is not a new concept. Are you affiliated with KIMCO? Or Eureka Square?
So your policy is to be business-friendly until someone actually invests -- then you do your best to run them off!?!
You people are no better than Sue or Vreeland.
This is an interesting discussion and I hope it becomes a part of the city's dialogue. Hutch's idea is intriguing, but may have unintended consequences. I don't know the answer, but we need to look at all possibilities.
"Are you affiliated with KIMCO? Or Eureka Square?"
I'm affiliated with a market economy. As long as we're asking silly questions, are you affiliated with Karl Marx?
The people who want to turn Sharp Park into a frog sanctuary agree with you. Think about that.
"you people"
You must not be a small business owner buddy
Come over to the dark side ian.
When exactly does a business get big enough that "you people" decide to attack it? Is there some threshold?
KIMCO-NIMBY : a person who complains about lack of business development while at the same complaining about business developers.
"..big enough that "you people" decide to attack it?" Anonymous 10:18 PM.
You keep coming back with defense of Kimco which attacks our community with empty store fronts. Big company has been of no concern, but company policy has. Factually the Corporation only has about 685 employees (2011), so does that qualify it as a large company? Not really.
But don't worry your stock is going up, while our small businesses are going down. And as you've pointed out in other anonymous comments, its always heartening when growth and no growth Pacificans can unite in a common cause. This appears to be one. Kumbaya, hippies!
Companies lose their leases all the time. It's a normal part of business.
I got pretty pissed at the Pedro Point landlord who kicked the Pacifica Athletic Center out of their old location, so I can understand the anger at Kimco. But to call what they're doing predatory or an attack is ridiculous hyperbole.
"..to call what they're doing predatory or an attack is ridiculous hyperbole." Steve Sinai 12:35 AM
Just my opinion Steve, using the dictionary definition of predatory.
8/11, 3:16 PM, Chris Porter mentioned, "I also know KIMCO forced PARTY TIME out of Westlake. They had been there at least 25 years and they (the renter) told me directly that KIMCO tried to triple the rent. There are a few vacant storefronts in Westlake right now." That's a 300% tenant lease increase, in a weak economy.
Securities has been a minor part of my business for over 25 years, and the REITS I've viewed provide investors steady income and eventually sell, providing long term investors capital gains. That's the investor part.
The management part at the local level, apparently includes non-resident Kimco REIT management continuing to raise lease rates above market in a weak economy. Of course Pacifica is a weak market economy. And complaints about the high cost of these shopping centers leases have occurred over many years. Kimco's stock is up 20% over 1 year. That gain may or may not be reflected as part of real estate appreciation, rather than any real gains.
The point being, if the city can do anything to improve Kimco shopping center tenant occupancy, through dialog or ordinance, it should.
Sinai
3 sides to every story
The landlords
The leasee
The happy truth somewhere in the middle.
Pedro Point Shopping Center looks really nice now. The nicest it has looked in a long long time.
I go back and remember Coastside 1 being there, and the Rose Room!
I think we are extraordinarily lucky that a 50 year old shopping center in this struggling, always down at the heels community is run well by a multi-national company like Kimco. Biggest REIT in the world. They'll keep it running with strong national chain anchor stores that guarantee the foot traffic and they'll make a reasonable effort to fill the inevitable smaller vacancies but they're not lowering rents to keep it filled. Absolutely no financial incentive to do so and it's clearly not their strategy. Enact legislation that creates tax credits for full occupancy and Kimco would be all over it. That legislation won't happen, but as the economy improves, new small businesses will open even in Pacifica. And small businesses will close. Remember, "it's the economy, stupid"? True then, true now. Kimco reaches maximum profitability with a property and then either upgrades the whole thing to the next level, if the area supports an upgrade, or they sell. Do they care about the store mix or local sentiment? Not unless it impacts the bottom-line. They didn't get that big and that profitable by being warm and fuzzy. They know their business. With disasters like Eureka Square and that Pacific Manor dump we need at least one shopping center that is professionally run. Great stock to own, too! I'm buying more and I'm happy to really be pro-economy. Shop here, shop there, just shop!
I wouldn't exactly say KIMCO or their stock is doing well.
It went from over 40 in 2008 to around 20 and it's stayed there (flat ) since Jan 2010.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=KIM&t=5y&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=
Before I accuse Kimco of being predatory, I'd like to know what Round Table's rent was before, how much Kimco wanted to raise it, leasing costs at other Linda Mar Mall shops, and comparable leasing costs at other malls in the area. People here are attacking Kimco based on flimsy hearsay.
My guess is that Kimco wasn't asking for anything out of line.
Also, we've heard here that the Round Table Pizza was being badly mismanaged and had stopped paying rent. We need to know the facts on both sides before passing judgement.
Yep, although determining whether Round Table was mismanaged might be too much of a subjective judgement to be of use.
"We want development but that's the wrong development" sounds a lot like "We want business but that's the wrong business'." Kimco too business-like for you? See how you are. The days of a cozy little neighborhood mall, locally owned and with mom and pops of every conceivable variety are gone forever. Chased out by the Targets, Costcos, Lowe's, Home Depots over the hill and Amazon.com. And then what was left was mowed down by the same recession that took the jobs, the houses, the 401Ks. Kudos to the Jewels Forever, Kerri's, and the taqueria, for surviving. Go spend some money at those places this week and keep doing it. That will help. It's business!
Anon 947 KIMCO is doing just fine. Bought it in 2008, happy with their plan, very happy with their portfolio, especially their acquisitions and lovely dividends. As long as mortgage interest rates are low, I'm buying and holding.
How do we reconcile being "pro-economy" (a ridiculous term to begin with) with this outrage over KIMCO's legitimate business practices?
Not so difficult. This is Pacifica.
Okay we get it Anonymous 12:44 PM, etc. You're happy with KIMCO because you allegedly bought the stock at a -50% hair cut. You're probably the same Anonymous person who posts the same "I go mine" message over and over.
I agree with Steve that facts are important. We don't always have the exact facts in front of us, but the complaints and the outcome are viewable.
Business competition or inability to adapt to new market conditions may also be an issue for some small businesses. Pizza has competition. The primary business of Patty's Hallmark was hard copy greeting cards.
Very public, several years ago Sam's Deli was forced out from what he claimed was a high rent increase. Another Deli took that location.
Anonymous 1:14 PM, duh.
Yeah it would be interesting to know how much rents were increased if at all.
And I agree with Ian we would want to study the issue to make sure there would be no unwanted consequences.
And I'm a big free market proponent. But IF you have a company that perhaps isn't aware that little Pacifica can not support the same rents as San Francisco or even Daly City. And IF they are raising rents to unsustainable levels. Then I think action by the City would be warranted.
YES KIMCO has a right to charge whatever rent they like. And the City can charge a levy IF too many storefronts become vacant.
I'm not saying we should do it. Just to look into it.
Kathy, yes, I'm a very happy KIMCO investor, REITs (other than residential housing types)have been a good addition to my portfolio, and I believe strongly in the free market, but that doesn't mean "I got mine" is my personal mantra. Certainly not. I'm a life-long very liberal Democrat who isn't repulsed by making money or others making money. In business as in life, doors close and other ones open. That's all that's going in at at Linda Mar. Market forces are opening and closing doors.
4 good pizza places have opened in the last few years in Pacifica.
Luigi's
Goodfellas
the Pointe at Pedro Point
The one on Francisco Blvd(the name I can't think of right now)
4 places taking business from Round Table.
Tough business enviroment even without the raising rent.
Do you know the stores in malls also pay a CAM fee. Or a percentage of gross sales or both to the landlord.
It is good to be king. He with the gold makes the rules and gets to be king!
Want to get rid of KIMCO? Mess with them, make doing business in Pacifica a pain in the ass, and watch them bail. Just sic the planning commission on them.
There's lots of shopping malls for sale all over the US, some in smarter towns who really are pro-business, mortgage rates are at historical lows, and KIMCO is in acquisition mode.
Jeez, maybe we can get a committee to run LM or how about a contest? What an unbelieveable discussion. Closet NIMBYs.
I support KIMCO and I don't work for them. So there. Deal with it.
Round Table owner ran the business into the ground. KIMCO had no rights interferring. That's business. Deal with it.
And Goodfellas has french fried artichoke hearts. Love Luigi's pizza and pasta and he's a prince.
Anon 5:14 PM Just curious? How did Round Table run their buiness into the ground? Always seemed packed to me and was one of the only places in town kids could have soccer and birthday parties.
For a long time I thought that Round Table had the best pizza in town. Then I had a couple of pizzas in a row that were awful. They changed the recipe or how they made them or something. Anyway, it was evident to me that the place was going downhill. Now I'm a devotee of Luigi's.
Perhaps the city should hire a consultant to tell Kimco how to run their Pacifica businesses.
Had a RoundTable pizza delivered just 2 days before they closed. Took the usual 45 minutes and quality was same as usual which was just fine.
They were a part of the community for decades, had lots of fans. Went quietly, no petitions. Whatever happened is business between them and KIMCO. What purpose is served by trashing either party now?
Humph! You've got your nerve Sinai. Those consultants are like family. Hell, they often are family. They're experts in some field. Experts, I tell ya!
I'm starting to crave some pizza.
Eh Paisan, Eata Luigi's. Just do it earlier in the evening. Fast delivery, too. Makes his own bread and his daughter makes the canoli.
Sinai I thought you were craving consultants.
"I'm a big free market proponent" -- Hutch
Except when I'm trying to tax and regulate companies that are actually investing in Pacifica. I mean, there are so many companies fighting to invest in Pacifica, we have all the leverage, right!!?! Let's be sure and crap on the ones that already have done so.
Oh please, you don't actually expect us to reason and analyze, to comprehend, do you? We don't know what it is we really support. Embrace the madness. Crap on everything!
Sinai, are you buying?
Most of you shouldn't really worry about how much the rent was in Linda Mar and or how much the greedy landlord wanted to charge Round Table. You should worry about paying your own damned rent!
The deli was a different story and unless you know all the fact you should shut the pie hole.
Sorry, being from Jersey, no California pizza compares.
But Viva Italiano comes close. And Luigi's garlic bread is killer.
BTW Anon 1036, Government regulation does work in some instances. Just look at Prop 213 which regulated auto insurance rates. Before Prop 213 insurance companies were raising rates 20% or more per year. The insurers said they would pull out of Ca if Prop 213 passed. Guess what, they didn't and car insurance costs much less because of it.
We need to do the same thing with health insurance.
Sorry, Hutch, but you sound identical to Loeb and all the other NIMBYs you're constantly whining about. People who want to reward companies who've decided to invest in Pacifica with regulations on how to run their business shouldn't complain about the no-growthers -- you're both equally bad for Pacifica.
No "regulations on how to run their business. etc." Anonymous 10:45 PM
Sorry comments from you Anonymous. Let's turn your comment around: People who may advocate for no regulations and buyer beware chaos are good for Pacifica? I don't think so.
I'm pleased that the "in my back yard" IMBY people can find common ground and a reason to unite against such sentiment.
And are you suggesting that Pacifica, our city, is just the tool of the investment company to make profit? That is a new low. This is our community. Small business and the people who live here are the material partners that make the investment company success happen.
Let's not turn my comment around -- I'm quite capable of expressing myself. All I'm saying is that a) Pacifica already provides plenty of barriers to companies doing business here and there's no need to add more, and b) none of the people on this blog are the least bit qualified to tell a REIT with a market cap of $8B how to run its business.
You're starting to sound just like all the NIMBYs who wanted to keep "evil out-of-state developers" from investing in the quarry, Kathy.
Steve Sinai said...
"Perhaps the city should hire a consultant to tell Kimco how to run their Pacifica businesses."
Steve, we now regulate every single business in Pacifica in 100's of ways. Just like every town in every State. We have health code regulations, building codes, OSHA, EPA, etc. All to protect the people which is the governments main responsibility. I am not for over regulating any business and I believe in free market. But if any business starts to effect our City by increasing crime and causing jobs lost then I see nothing wrong with the City looking at possible solutions.
Sinai
Do you know what happens when you don't pay the rent or mortgage payments?
Out the door you go!
"I am not for over regulating any business"
Hutch, I would consider taxing or fining mall managers for empty storefronts to be over-regulating.
Steve if a large business is impacting our city and causing more crime & added police costs, which is known to happen when there is a lot of empty storefronts. Then a levy for each storefront empty 6 months or more seems reasonable. But again we should study it before jumping to any quick fixes that might have unwanted results.
Evil bad bad KIMCO they run it like a business even in this backwards town. I can't believe they'd even bother with this psycho city.
And what's with the "regulate everything" stuff? Is Nancy Hall posting on this blog?
Has she taken over Hutch and Meeh? Pod people!
What's next? A catchy tune celebrating handwritten signs, the joys of dumpster diving and cooperatives?
We are talking about regulation that would possibly help local small business. I know that's hard to grasp but try.
It's not just Pacifica. Here's what Memphis says an empty building really costs:
$250,000 in lost sales
$12,500 in lost sales tax revenue to state and local government
$15,000 in lost rents to the property owner
$1,500 in lost property tax revenue to the local government
$51,000 in lost loan demand to local banks for the building
$15,000 in lost loan demand to local banks for the business
$750 in lost property management fees
$24,750 in lost business profits and owner compensation
$16,250 in lost employee payroll
$5,550 in lost payments to local utility companies
$3,500 in lost advertising revenues to local media
$5,100 in local deposits in local banks
$1,250 in lost fees to local attorneys and other professionals
$18,900 in lost household income generated elsewhere in the community
"I'm quite capable of expressing myself." Anonymous 6:30 AM
Yes you did, after reading one of those dusty old Ayn Rand novels, I suppose.
The wealth of this REIT profit pass through to investors may be some kind of god to you. Whereas, most people who live in the real world care about what happens to our community.
Compare to a successful San Mateo county investment company of similar size (not a REIT). A few examples of civic involvement: Added an information wing to the library, big donation to the new hospital, advocated for and supported a rural fire department.
All we're asking for in Pacifica is fair dealings toward our community. If the company is not willing to comply (which apparently they are not), then put the legal screws to them through ordinance. And, an ordinance to fill stores within 6 month is reasonable, pending in process contingencies.
Your REIT shopping center management comments have reduced content to twisted. Guess that's all you've got left.
Memphis is a very different city. If you don't have numbers from Pacifica, what you're saying is ridiculous.
That's right Anon 1207, everything in Memphis is much cheaper including rents wages, taxes, law enforcement etc....
haha, nice try though
So you're saying you CAN generalize from another city where housing, wages, costs of city services, and taxes are much lower.
Anon 314, you make no sense if you're referring to the other conversation about housing not paying for itself. That doesn't apply but nice try again.
Comparisons to Memphis (Yes, Memphis!) and wishing that KIMCO (pretty much our one and only big business) was more civic minded. Who was it again that runs off development? Perhaps we have more in common on here with the hippies than we knew.
anon314 you're playing with an unfair advantage.
How does a closed pizza place in a mall lead to more crime? Cops are still around. Are the out-of-work pizza guys and gals turning to a life of crime? Oh the horror.
"KIMCO (pretty much our one and only big business)"
They are not "HERE" their offices are out of State. They do not employ any people here other than a few maintenance people. They are not a big business here in Pacifica. They are an out of state business that "may" be harming our small local businesses by predatory raising of rents
"If the company is not willing to comply (which apparently they are not), then put the legal screws to them"
Spoken like a true Friend of Pacifica (and enemy of our city becoming solvent), Kathy. Sounds like you must be in violent agreement with the Fish and Bowl NIMBYs.
Good thing we ran Peebles off. He was from out-of-town, so obviously he would have stuck it to Pacifica.
Or at least that's what the reasoning here seems to be.
You might want to think that one all the way through, Hutch. KIMCO is very much here and contributing to the revenues of this city, county, and state. And let's not forget their shareholders. Sure they make money, lots of it. That is the goal of business. They're not running some business-incubator and they don't pretend to be. I guess the hippies and KIMCO-NIMBYs would provide a more nurturing environment for the tenants. Run it like the Sanchez Art Center? Poor Pacifica has had so little experience with real business that it's scary and the knee-jerk reaction is more control, more regulation, more meddling in free-enterprise. All completely unnecessary and not much of a welcome mat.
Reasoning? Sinai, you a funny man.
Reasoning?
Sinai, I think we're beginning to see who really ran Peebles off. Never did like that 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. Damn those closet Nimbys.
If Kimco was concerned about those empty storefronts, they'd do something about it beyond the usual tenant search. True, they are muddling along without the sage counsel of the renowned Pacifica Business Brain Trust (NYSE: PBBT)but you know we're all busy this week helping Warren.
We're PBBT... just doing our best to lead these fools out of the stone age.
Good grief Kathy, "put the legal screws to them through ordinance".
For what? Daring to run a business in Pacifica? Not a non-profit, but a business. Risks and rewards for all who enter. This pro-economy label is dopier than I thought...scratch one of 'em and there's a NIMBY underneath.
"...violent agreement with the Fish and Bowl NIMBYs." Anonymous 5:51 PM
Your comment is false, confused and just plain wrong. But maybe you're the anonymous turnip that just fell off the truck.
Woohoo Kathy, the farmer's market is back!!
Good grief Anonymous 6:30 PM, there's got to be some legal recourse for empty store fronts.
Several comments have been made in that regard above, including mine. Or try the Editorial by Elaine Larsen, Editor/Publisher Pacifica Tribune, reprinted on Fix Pacifica.
Is there possibly anything else we want to run? NASA, the Federal Reserve, NYCity? Why stop with KIMCO? The Federal Reserve and Bernanke have messed with Pacifica for the last time. And what about that inept post office bunch? Every day when the postman leaves, my neighbors and I gather in the street to sort out the mis-deliveries.
If KIMCO ends up holding the quarry property, this blog will probably self-destruct.
OMG, Kathy! Kimco would be an out-of-town developer, just like Peebles. Or Trammel Crow.
We'd need to "put the legal screws to them".
That's wicked, Fogel, but like they say "no pain, no gain".
"OMG, "Kimco would be an out-of-town developer, just like Peebles. Or Trammel Crow." Anonymous 10:15 PM
Having problems distinguishing a Real Estate developer from an investment firm and REIT?
1. Investment Company
2. REIT.
3. Real Estate Developer.
Yeah, to you they all look alike. But, let's get a qualified developer to build the quarry anyhow.
Kathy, could you please clarify again -- of those three categories, which ones do you and Hutch want to oversee their leases so you can fine them if you don't like them? Is it just REITs? What if Peebles developed something new, but a few tenants folded and left empty storefronts?
Can you see how your weird oversight would discourage outside investment just as much as the twirly dancers? We already have something to discourage bad business practices: it's called losing money and going out of business. If you need a reference, just look at our city budget.
" We already have something to discourage bad business practices.." Anonymous 10:59 PM
Yep, something isn't working in Pacifica, and that seems to include management at our shopping centers.
An economic development professional/department at city hall might be helpful. And, having a city ordinance penalty after 6 months of a store front not rented might slowdown vacancies as Hutch has suggested. This has all been discussed prior.
Not so fast there, Ms. Meeh. Kimco is involved through at least one of its divisions in "acquiring well located land parcels well suited for future retail development". I believe the focus has been south of the border, but who knows. They're a cash buyer and so much of CA is one big fire sale. Would the quarry fit their model? No se. But to know Pacifica is to love Pacifica, verdad? Eh, maybe not.
While we're being educational here's more food for thought for all the Kimco bashers. Through their KEYS program they actually do operate a business-incubator for first-time biz owners and entrepreuners. KEYS stands for Kimco Entrepreneur Year Start. Program began in CA and provides a years free rent and other support for participating businesses within a Kimco owned and managed property. Avg business size is 2500 sqft. And wouldn't you know it, there are program openings in Linda Mar, Westlake and Fairmont Centers including some fully-fitted restaurant spaces. No doubt Kimco enjoys considerable tax benefits for this program but still it's a nice thing to do for the communities they're in.
I wondered who or what was going to replace "the 10 year city council fail", or whatever that chant was, for Kathy et al. No more wondering, it's going to be Kimco.
I guess I wasn't so loyal afterall. I've quickly adjusted to Luigi's. Home-style, adult pizza and the menu is much more extensive.
Yes, regulations where the city kills business has not only been discussed, but has been fully implemented in Pacifica for decades. I guess It's just a little surprising that you now support it.
Yeah, Kathy as a twirly dancer. Who knew?
If the chamber wants to be useful maybe they should help someone get into that KEYS program. Maybe several someones.
"...Kimco bashers. Through their KEYS program they actually do operate a business-incubator for first-time biz owners and entrepreneurs." Anonymous 11:32 PM
Guess they forgot about Pacifica.
Er Anonymous 11:50 PM, the ECO NIMBY development regulations occur prior to the build or during the improvement. Whereas, reasonable business expectations and regulations occur once the business is established. The latter is the focus of our discussion.
What I support is a reasonable committment to the community from the REIT management investment company. The community includes the tenant (the small business owner that takes the risk, moves and occupies space in the shopping center).
The outstanding question is whether that's happening. The issue is if not what solutions are available. It seems the city has a vested interest. The motivation could be "carrot or stick." The carrot could be public relations, the stick could be an ordinance.
The Chamber and City Council will do a KEYS program.
Cash for Key's when the sheriff evicts them after Bankruptcy!
regulations of development are ECO NIMBY, regulations of business are reasonable
I love watching twirly dancing
Kathy their circular thinking prevents considering other viewpoints. I wouldn't waste my time.
"If KIMCO ends up holding the quarry property, this blog will probably self-destruct."
Hahaha, cleaver! Kimco could build the blogs wishful super outlet mall and not fill any vacancies. Hahaha, Kimco could propose it's traditional three stories of residential above it's super outlet mall and not rent out any of the units.
I don't thing there is a developer out there that if he/she does even the smallest amount of due diligence would consider purchasing the quarry for development.
Hutch your circular firing squad is amusing.
I don't thing there is a developer out there that if he/she does even the smallest amount of due diligence would consider purchasing the quarry for development.
I agree with you and I've said this for quite some time now; there are simply too many agencies and regulatory hurdles involved. At any point, any one of a dozen or so stakeholders can pretty much stop any imagined project. Why invest in the site if the odds of getting a return on your investment are so very, very slim?
I've also pointed out that if there ever was commercial development in the quarry, there's no guarantee we wouldn't end up with the same mass-vacancies at the site that we see in pretty much every other commercial center in Pacifica. In fact, it would seem that the evidence to support this notion is all about us.
But belief in "The Quarry" (tm) has evolved into a religious sort of fervor ala the Quest for the Holy Grail. Of course, since there is no quarry development on the horizon, planned or otherwise, supporters of the quarry mirage place all their hopes and dreams upon it; surely the El Dorado at Rockaway will save Pacifica from all the evil the city faces.
It's an unshakeable faith in Rescue via Shopping Center which, when confronted with reality, becomes ever stronger still.
Circular firing squads and clueless closet Nimbys. Sounds good. Gather round!
Closet twirlies.
Amen, Fogel. Development in the quarry was always a big-stakes gamble and several big players gambled and lost. Its questionable value disappeared when the housing bubble burst. Of course such a loss guarantees that Development of the Quarry ( those words always accompanied by trumpets) takes on mythical qualities. It's a cult.
Pacifica's own crazy cult. You may have noticed lots of kraykray in Pacifica.
Fogel anyone who still believes in development of that quarry isn't thinking about the vacancy factor there or in our older shopping centers and businesses. Haha, they'd blame the death of the business community on Kimco.
No trumpets anon1136. Pacifica's unofficial theme song is "Rescue Me", that great oldie by Fontella Bass. From 1965, I think, which was probably about the last decade Pacifica wasn't in need of rescue.
Like most cities, Pacifica was in decent financial shape up until the economy imploded.
The people who insist that it's futile to build in the quarry are the ones who want nothing built in the quarry.
No, anon220, but given the very real barriers to development of the quarry, your delusion must be a comfort to you.
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